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Monday, October 22, 2007

Comments

Emanus Walk

As far as I can tell, no one is telling gays that they are not entitled to refer to their movement as a 'civil right'. What Black people object to is gays attempting to co-opt a movement that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Convince me that there were never any white gays who participated in lynch mobs, were never members of the Klu Klux Kan or ever denied blacks the right to sit a lunch counters or attempted to block them from entering schools. Convince me that gay slave-owners never raped, beat and brutalized the helpless heterosexual black men that they bought and sold as chattel. Convince me that gays always had common cause with black people and never tossed about racial epithets. Actually, that one would be rather hard to do since we all heard the racist attitudes exhibited by gays after Prop 8 passed in California.

Convince me the 100% of the men who profess to be gay were born that way and that a male child who was molested by a family member would have turned out gay anyway. Gay people always deride Donnie McClurkin yet they never tell you that he was raped and molested repeatedly as a child thus causing him experience deep confusion about his sexuality. Instead, they repeatedly refer to him as a 'self-hating' gay man. On the other hand they insist that no man is ever gay due to molestation. Gee, I guess Donnie's rapists' knew he was gay all along. How prescient of them.

If you can convince me of these things then I might change my mind about conflating gay and black civil right movements.

BOB GAY SMITH

OBAMA stated he believes that gays are "our brothers" WELL According to the Church he goes to and thier beleifs... ONLY IF THOSE GAY PEOPLE ARE WHITE !

HE IS A RACIST and ONLY Beleives in Black Power !!

Hope he doesn't get elected or we will be run by Black Power .. so probably kill the whites or put them in jail and let the real "bruthas" Out!

MrUniteUs

Let's be honest some people are using this as excuse other than race, not to vote for Obama. So where all the Mcclurkin haters after he the one the Grammy? There was nary a peep from. Makes you wonder.

Obama believes in civil rights and civil unions for gays, and that marriage should be left to denominations. Sounds reasonable.

Mcclurkin was raped when he was 8 years old.
He openly admits he once lived a gay live style, but no longer does. What's wrong with that? Sexuality is an individual thing and it is a choice. One size does not fit all. Choices are made. There are heterosexuals, homosexuals, ex-heteros, ex-homos, bisexuals, transsexuals, transvestites, child molesters, and something called beastiality. Within each of those groups choices are made. For instance some homosexuals prefer effeminate men, some don't. Some lesbians prefer women that look like men, others don't. Some homosexuals are racist, others aren't. Some pracitice safe sex, others don't. Some are in committed relationship, others sleep around. Choices are made everyday.

Les

If Obama appears on stage with McClurkin he looses my vote!

CivilvsHuman

Nita, Really, no black people can draw any similarities of the black civil rights movement to the gay civil rights movement? Although they are not equal, there are many similarities. Just because some black people believe that you can't find any common ground doesn't mean that it is not there.

Black people do not have the monopoly on civil rights violations. Quite the opposite actually, although racism still exists, what civil right are you not guaranteed under the constitution? I am sure that gay people have many more, and the fight to get them will most likely follow a similar course as the black civil rights movement. Your race was able to successfully combat a racist society and gain the same rights for all members. This is what the gay community is trying to do. Do not lump human rights in with civil rights. That is a very different debate and one where your argument may actually hold up.

Chris

Once again people.

All the comments are very understandable for debate. However look at THE BIG PICTURE. And learn to choose your battles.

AND OH Perry I understand your debating a black minister about "Civil" rights and "Gay" rights. Lets be a little realistic right about now....

WHAT ARE GAY RIGHTS???????

And then when "GAY" rights are passed will our "WHITE" counterparts treat us (BLACK gays) with the same respect as they do each other (meaning other WHITE gays)
I'm not too keen on the Lesbian scene. But as for GAY MEN it's just as racist and separatist as it is in the South on the whole scale.

SO ONCE AGAIN...WHAT ARE GAY RIGHTS?????

Nita

Chris, I hear you with what you've written. I found a link to a blog post Jasmyne already did

jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/2006/10/white_gays_grou.html

"White Gay Groups Silent on Black Gay Hate Crime Too" A lot of the hate crimes, for everyone, are same race. That makes sense. White gay groups still need to show some love to all victims of gay hate crimes.

As for Jesse and Al and the rest, Jesse gets a pass because of the very real work he used to do for civil rights. I don't know the exact moment at which he went from high figure to parody. I have never taken Al Sharpton seriously, and figured he was just a double New York/white mainstream media thing. Yes, the Clintons do take black folks for granted....... the entire democrat party takes black folks for granted. We take ourselves for granted. That's on us (no matter what our orientation or place in life). No one can help us, but us.

Having to fight the white gay community for acceptance is a stab in the heart. And its true. So we can't wait on their acceptance. It's not going to come. We are not them, they are not us. Stand on our own two feet. I don't know what the solution is, to make black voices heard louder.

Nita

Perry wrote: "However, when it comes to homophobia, especially within our own communities, our sexual orientation wins out over any race related alliances we may have. This question has interested me for a while now, ever since I found myself engaged in a "heated" discussion with a Black minister on comparing the civil rights struggle with today's gay rights struggle. As a white gay guy,..."

I hate to say 'stop right there'. 1) As a white who happens to be gay, you will never have the same conversation with a black minister as a black who happens to be gay, regarding the Civil Rights Movement. Did you actually listen to that black minister and why he would feel the way he does regarding attempts to equate the gay struggle with the black struggle? or did you do as many whites do when 'speaking TO' (as opposed to WITH) a person of color, and dismiss him before he even opened his mouth?

2) Does sexual orientation really trump race, when it comes to homophobia, for GLBTs? That seems counterintuitive to me; but then I'm not a political lesbian or bisexual. When it comes to women's issues, I understand that woman means 'white'; my race comes before my gender, whether the movement admits to it or not. And I allow it to, because women's issues don't always encompass the special needs and cultural experiences of women of color. And that's why homophobia allowing GLBTs to put sexual orientation before race seems counterintuitive to me. If I go to a GLBT club on campus, I am a token. A feminist club, I am a token. At the BSU, I am me. But your experiences have been different?

3) Back to the equation of black civil rights movement with the gay civil rights movment, I'd have to refer you to what others have written elsewhere. At mydd.com, Dee writes "Rikyrah, Clearly Bookgirl and others here don't understand that nothing gets Black folks more riled up than equating Gay rights to African American civil rights. As you and I know, even Black folks who are highly sympathetic of the struggles of gays and lesbians will be quick to tell you you've crossed the line if you start comparing the struggles or equating the communities. I'm tempted to post the link to one of the most popular African American sites so folks here can read what Black folks are saying about this issue. It's as hot of an issue there as it is in progressive bloghesphere, but I don't have to tell you that the opinions are as different as night and day (forgive the pun)."

At celebrity gossip site Bossip, LetMeTellYa wrote, "Regardless of people’s views of homosexuality, why are Black people constantly lumped together with them? Why can’t we put our interests and issues, upfront and single? Honestly, are they facing, as a group, crime, low education, drugs/drug dealings, poverty, black men blowing each other away, gangs, etc? Yes, the BLACK ones may be, but for the most part, homosexuals aren’t. Even a gay person has to admit, when it comes to housing, jobs, society in general, people don’t know you are gay unless that person tells it or looks stereotypical (butch or effeminate), but people DAMN SURE KNOW YOU ARE BLACK WHEN THEY SEE YOU."

But this is all a broken record to you, right? What was your response to the black minister's fury at the Civil Rights Movement being equated with the Gay Rights Movement?

Chris

Well, Well, Well,

I'm not going to say I am, or am not! Disappointed with Barak Obama having his concert this weekend with Donnie, and Mary Mary. I guess alot of us get upset at these things because we are being judged of our lifestyle and who we are.
But being someone who was born and raised in the Pentecostal persuasion. I know how this can be. But I just exhale and realize that I will answer God for what I do. Just like all of them will as well. Record sales, and mega-churches does not equate to ANYTHING but earthly wealth! REMEMBER THAT!!! It’s not a requirement from God.

Now as for Obama. We as Black people need to understand that everything is not going to be in our favor, it never has and it never will be for any other race in that regard.

Jesse, Al and alot of the Black political establishment has turned against this Man and licking Hilary's anatomy. I voted for Clinton both times and I later realized that all they did was take us Black folks for GRANTED! No Blacks had any major appointments in his cabinet, now he is in Harlem and the real estate and rents are through the ROOF! That's one for the working poor!

Some pills we just need to swallow and look at THE BIG PICTURE. Because if any of you think that one day in the next 20 yrs LGBT is going to be "THE IN THING"....HAHAHAHAHA THINK AGAIN.
We will always fight for our share of the American Pie and then we have to fight THE WHITE GAY COMMUNITY to accept us equally.
However, they do not accept us but will exploit us for their own ill-gotten gains as well. For example go to all the "BLADE publications and they are all over this Obama story. But they couldn't give Michael Sandy the same decency of support as Matthew Shepard. Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMM.

BLACK, BROWN PEOPLE wake the hell up and Learn to BOND!!!!!!!! Divide us and we will be conquered!

I'm sorry I'm still with Obama because this will be the only chance for a long time that a Black person can and will be considered for this position.
As far as I'm concerned before anything to I am a BLACK MAN who is Gay. But GAY does not equate most of my problems to my daily living. But being Black does in many ways as well as the rest of you. Maybe when we can be ONE LGBT community then the fighting and resistance to those that have issues with us can make the struggle seem like something worth the fight!

P.S Hilary doesn't support GAY MARRIAGE neither GO FIGURE children!!!!!

With that said. I wish you all
PEACE, LOVE, AND THE TRUE BLESSINGS FROM ABOVE!
THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES

Perry

"For many Black lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans race trumps sexual orientation everyday of the week. However, when it comes to homophobia, especially within our own communities, our sexual orientation wins out over any race related alliances we may have."

(meant to put that in quotes!)

Perry

For many Black lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans race trumps sexual orientation everyday of the week. However, when it comes to homophobia, especially within our own communities, our sexual orientation wins out over any race related alliances we may have.

This question has interested me for a while now, ever since I found myself engaged in a "heated" discussion with a Black minister on comparing the civil rights struggle with today's gay rights struggle. As a white gay guy, I certainly don't want to be perceived as minimizing the Black civil rights struggle, as anyone who compares those 2 movements is sometimes accused of. But I think that engaging in religious-based homophobia does more to minimize the civil rights struggle than anything, because it uses the same illogic once thrust against Blacks, just with a new target now.

Anyway, thank you for all your thoughts on this. I'm profoundly disappointed in my man Barack - I've been an Obama '08 guy ever since his speech at the '04 Dem convention. I still think he can pull it off, and this (VERY) stupid campaign blunder can be overcome. But I'm hurt, and disillusioned that such a misjudgment could be made. Given Hillary's negatives, he's still the best game out there. But he's got to be PRO-ACTIVE in dealing with this snafu, and the commenter's suggestion that he address it head-on at the gospel festival is probably the best idea. I hope he does it.

We're all gonna have to sleep on this one.

Mes Deux Cents

Hi,

I think a lot of people are missing the point in Sen. Obama going on this tour. This is nothing more than a wink and a nod to Black hatemongers/ religious nuts who speak hatred toward the Black LGBT community everyday.

This is no different than White candidates giving the obligatory Bob Jones University speech, which is a wink and a nod to the White religious right crazies.

Thanks

DW

Well, I guess none of this really matters to me since my gf and I are voting Hillary.

Why? Because she's a girl. Sometimes it's just that simple.

krw

This black lesbian gurl is for marriage...and IS in a committed relationship, and is pissed at Obama (though he needs the hook up from the black church community) that he's pandering to these folks - please don't assume that only affluent non-black folks want gay marriage - we all want the freedom and liberty to *be* who we are, and that includes being able to marry our sweetheart. Donnie needs to quit - he is STILL gay, and if he was violated as a child, I'm sorry, but he was likely gay before and is gay now. If he needs to wallow in self-hate, so be it.

Myra

Well, you all should have known, he would do what they have all done with anything gay related, LIE to get a vote.

At least the GOP canidates are upfront, and, I can respect that more than any of the Democrats who all basically feel the same, but, won't be upfront about it.

All that said, this is an election, and, he wants to win, even if it means saying and doing anything.

Darkrose

"Which is not to say that Black lesbian and gay couples don’t benefit from marriage, but if you weigh marriage verses having food to eat and a roof over your head, what do you think is going win? Bottom line, the gay community is not monolithic."

Neither is the Black gay community, Jasmyne, and I have to say that I'm a little put off by your dismissal of those of us who do care about marriage as being "affluent" and "enjoying large salaries".

My partner is disabled, on SSDI. I'm fortunate enough to have found a job that provides health insurance, but trust me, I don't enjoy a large salary--I work for the UC system as low-level staff. We're one emergency away from disaster. Being able to marry and have our marriage recognized by the federal government is very much an economic issue. Unlike my straight married co-workers, my partner's health coverage is considered a taxable "fringe benefit" by the IRS; I'm essentially paying a "gay tax" with each paycheck. If something should happen to me, my partner wouldn't be able to claim my Social Security benefits; she'll just have to hope that I'm vested in the state retirement plan.

Certainly there are other issues, and I'm not arguing that marriage is number one. But please don't assume that only rich white gays and lesbians care about it.

Johnny

Gays have forgiven Patti LaBelle, and apparently they've forgiven Jennifer Hudson for saying homosexuality is a sin, because you never hear anything about that anymore. And what about Madonna's gushing endorsement of homophobe Eminem? She never got much heat for that. But Donna Summer sure hasn't been forgiven. Even though there's no absolute proof what she said, no recording exists of what she allegedly said at a concert 25 yrs ago. And whatever the case, she hasn't said anything anti-gay since. And she's done at least a moderate amount of AIDS fund-raising work. But people seem to never get tired of raking her back over the coals.

Jerry Maneker

Jasmyne: I don't think this is in any way a "teachable moment" for Obama. Rather, he's teaching us about the nature of the political process and the amoral people whom that process attracts.

As I wrote to a friend of mine concerning this issue: "Obama can't get out of his dilemma now! If he renegs, he's going to further anger "conservatives" whom he foolishly feels will get out and vote for him; if he doesn't reneg, he will alienate the only voters he can truly count on: the "liberals." So, he's just another political whore who will sell out anyone, any principle, for some votes, and I can't say that I'm sorry to see him in this position."

As Stuffed Animal wrote in an above comment on this thread: "Barack Obama was asking for trouble when he linked up with McClurkin, and now he's got it. Pandering to the Right Wing religious element in the Black community backfired on him big time. Now he's got to show us whether he's a leader for all of the people, or just for those who are heterosexual and bigoted."

I think Obama's already answered that question! He's for whatever will gain him the most votes, and principle be damned! Just like many "liberals" threw Transgendered people under the bus regarding ENDA for purposes of political expediency and/or selfishness, Obama (and most other professing "liberals") seems willing to throw LGBT people under the bus, despite his typical "liberal rhetoric," in order to align himself with some famous entertainers who spew homophobic hatred so that he can ride their coat tails toward increasing popularity that might well translate into the votes he needs.

I don't see him as being any friend of any segment of the population, any more than I see any other politician running for President, save Kucinich and Gravel. In my opinion, Obama is just like the others (Save the two I mentioned.) running for that office: a mere political opportunist who'll sell anyone or anything out in order to gain as many votes as possible.


PDQ

I wonder what Oprah Winfrey, who is trying to play political king-maker with her endorsement of Obama says about this. For that matter, I wonder what her "friends" Stedman and Gayle have to say about it!

taylor Siluwé

Question ... yes, believing homosexuality is wrong does make you a homophobe. You quiver at the thought of burning in Hell. Quiver = Fear = Phobia. It's not too difficult.

Having said that, your religious beliefs (or anyone elses), have no place in our political system. The Christian right has managed to pull the okey-doke, slithering into politics while still keeping their tax-exempt status.

Talkstocyotes (and WC Fields) is right, there's a sucker born every minute. You can't teach you kids that fags are gonna burn in Hell, and then turn a blind eye when our gay youth are murdered in the streets because of this passive-aggressive form of bashing.

Maybe I'm Christian bashing. So be it -- its time we hit back, or at the very least, make these politically active churches and pastors pay their damn taxes like everyone else.

Stuffed Animal

"Endorse homosexuality"? You mean like Florence Henderson endorsing Polident? Looks as if the neanderthals have gotten loose in your comments section again, Jazz!

All you knuckleheads going around promoting the fiction that being LGBT is a "lifestyle" and a "choice", get real already! So you think homosexual love is sinful . . . you don't say? A long time ago, I used to think women got pregnant from kissing! Believing something erroneous doesn't make it so. Proclaiming God and calling yourself a Christian doesn't excuse ignorance. And I don't just mean ignorance about Gay people, but ignorance about what Jesus Christ said about us, too.

He called us "eunuchs because they were born that way"(Matthew 19:12, New International Version). "Eunuchs" was the ancient understanding of Gay men. At that time, the word had nothing to do with castration. As for Lesbians, outside of a snide comment by the Apostle Paul, there is no prohibition against Lesbian sexuality anywhere in the Bible.

That same chapter from the Gospel according to Matthew lists exactly which laws Christians must follow. Basically, the list reiterates God's Ten Commandments. We don't follow the Holiness Code of the Old Testament. We don't follow laws laid down by Paul. We follow Christian law, and Christian law does not condemn same-gender love. If your preacher tells you different, he's a false prophet, and I don't care how famous or respected he or she is.

Donnie McClurkin is a false prophet. That's why Jasmine is right to criticize him. Not only does he espouse ignorance and intolerance, he spouts corrupt Christian doctrine. He doesn't know the Savior. Those who are truly saved don't pretend to be something they're not, and they have no need to pontificate about what adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms.

Barack Obama was asking for trouble when he linked up with McClurkin, and now he's got it. Pandering to the Right Wing religious element in the Black community backfired on him big time. Now he's got to show us whether he's a leader for all of the people, or just for those who are heterosexual and bigoted.

whozhe

It's important that the Democrats get support from the christian community. Let Obama do the politcally correct thign now and later pass laws to advance our cause.

Joshua

If you believe homosexuality is wrong you are homophobic. That's why. Look it up. Homophobic = prejudiced against homosexual people. Your prejudice (or pre-judgment) has led you to believe that which many closed-minded brainwashed people believe: that discrimination and dehumanizing LGBT people is God-ordained, which it is not. God made me a Black gay man and I love Him for it and I love me for it. All the deeming of sin, and deeming of being unnatural and all that mess comes from the tainting of the limited mind of many humans and their one-sided superficial reading of the Bible (in part). I love myself, I love my homosexuality, I love my Blackness, I love my God, and God made me in His image. My God is bigger than all, including whatever interpretation or opinion people have of me and my sexual orientation.

And as for racism being referred to as "chicken and egg," that is obviously the opinion of one who has experienced race in a White way, that is to say in a way that race can be addressed only when he or she wants it to be. People of color (here, Black people) experience race daily. White people don't want to talk about race and don't have to since they live in a land where they are the powerholders, and the moment they see anything that could be construed as Black people being anti-White, they cry "see, those Blacks are racist, too," but the dynamic of race is very complex, cannot be dealt with that simply, and Whites' racist sentiments against Black people are very distinct from Black people's racist sentiments against Whites. Two different experiences cannot be deemed equal or level when they have histories of stratification and social hierarchy like no other.

Enough of me on my soapbox. Get that knowledge, y'all!

Question

Why is it that if someone believes homosexuality to be wrong that they're called homophobic?

Why can't a person say that they believe homosexuality is wrong, in the same way that fornication and lust is wrong. People do it ALL the time. We're human. It's life. Do we love them any less? Kids lie. They're not supposed to, but they do. Does that mean we love them less than we would if they were honest Abe? No.

I have to say, I do think that homosexuality is a sin. In the same way that pre-marital sex is a sin and fornication and so on and so on. But it is what it is. These are the times we live in. Do I support gay-bashing? Of course not. One thousand percent, no. Am I a homophobe? No. I just have an opinion stemming from my beliefs.

Joey

I'm white and gay, and Jasmyne is sometimes racist in a chicken and egg way. It's ok because most of her audience are not offended here. It just proves racism is something we have to live with, work towards ending it knowing it will never end.

That being said, Obama is the man. I don't care if Obama hired some popular singers for a fund raiser. They aren't going to be his political staff. They are trying to keep their primary jobs, he is trying to get more votes so he can do the job he should get as the best person for it. I can really pass on Clinton, completely and truly. Obama can be forgiven for this, a minor bump. It's not like he used an offensive slur against someone.

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